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	<title>Comments on: Faith And Consequences</title>
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	<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/05/faith-and-consequences/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: conradg</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/05/faith-and-consequences/comment-page-1/#comment-10515</link>
		<dc:creator>conradg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 08:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/05/faith-and-consequences/#comment-10515</guid>
		<description>I think the reason not to inject theological certainties into politics is the same reason not to inject theological cerntainties into science - whatever their value is to any individual, their value to the collective of humanity is limited to what can actually be demonstrated and proven in life itself. 

I don&#039;t mind theological certainties which can be demonstrably shown to be true, or to be of value. &quot;Thou Shalt Not Kill&quot; makes sense, because it can be demonstrated that murder is morally bad for any community. Likewise &quot;Thou Shalt Not Steal&quot;. But frankly, your belief in the final Judgement after death has no demonstrable truth, meaning, or value in life itself. I don&#039;t begrudge your believing in it, but I would certainly resent it if you made it the basis for some political policy. The value of a policy proposal should rest on what can be demonstrated in life, not on what effect you might believe it will have on your fate after death. 

Obviously there are good reasons for this. My own theological beliefs are undoubtedly quite different from your own. But if they can&#039;t be demonstrated to have any value in this life, I don&#039;t see how they can be sensibly adopted by others simply because I appeal to theological certainty. This is no different than suggesting that scientists should bow to the theological certainty of religious people that we did not evolve by natural selection, but were created by God in the manner described in Genesis. I&#039;m sympathetic to many aspects of creationist religion. I have my own particular beliefs on the issue as well. Yet I see no reason why scientific inquiry should be guided by such beliefs. It would lead to chaos and some very bad decisions with very bad consequences. 

So, as far as I am concerned, go ahead and inject theological notions into the public debate, but only if they are strongly supported by evidence, demonstrable in life, and not dependent upon belief or religious certainty. Much of theology is, in my opinion, false on all levels. I think that my own theology is right, however. Most people think similarly - they just think that their own theological ideas are correct, and those who differ are wrong. So what does a polity do? Vote based on theology, in which case the majority-held beleifs win, or vote based on demonstrable benefit, in which case only ideas, whatever their origin, that work get enacted? I think it&#039;s pretty obvious what produces a more desirable society to live in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the reason not to inject theological certainties into politics is the same reason not to inject theological cerntainties into science &#8211; whatever their value is to any individual, their value to the collective of humanity is limited to what can actually be demonstrated and proven in life itself. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mind theological certainties which can be demonstrably shown to be true, or to be of value. &#8220;Thou Shalt Not Kill&#8221; makes sense, because it can be demonstrated that murder is morally bad for any community. Likewise &#8220;Thou Shalt Not Steal&#8221;. But frankly, your belief in the final Judgement after death has no demonstrable truth, meaning, or value in life itself. I don&#8217;t begrudge your believing in it, but I would certainly resent it if you made it the basis for some political policy. The value of a policy proposal should rest on what can be demonstrated in life, not on what effect you might believe it will have on your fate after death. </p>
<p>Obviously there are good reasons for this. My own theological beliefs are undoubtedly quite different from your own. But if they can&#8217;t be demonstrated to have any value in this life, I don&#8217;t see how they can be sensibly adopted by others simply because I appeal to theological certainty. This is no different than suggesting that scientists should bow to the theological certainty of religious people that we did not evolve by natural selection, but were created by God in the manner described in Genesis. I&#8217;m sympathetic to many aspects of creationist religion. I have my own particular beliefs on the issue as well. Yet I see no reason why scientific inquiry should be guided by such beliefs. It would lead to chaos and some very bad decisions with very bad consequences. </p>
<p>So, as far as I am concerned, go ahead and inject theological notions into the public debate, but only if they are strongly supported by evidence, demonstrable in life, and not dependent upon belief or religious certainty. Much of theology is, in my opinion, false on all levels. I think that my own theology is right, however. Most people think similarly &#8211; they just think that their own theological ideas are correct, and those who differ are wrong. So what does a polity do? Vote based on theology, in which case the majority-held beleifs win, or vote based on demonstrable benefit, in which case only ideas, whatever their origin, that work get enacted? I think it&#8217;s pretty obvious what produces a more desirable society to live in.</p>
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		<title>By: Benny One Six</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/05/faith-and-consequences/comment-page-1/#comment-10461</link>
		<dc:creator>Benny One Six</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 20:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/05/faith-and-consequences/#comment-10461</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think Bush is trying to immanentize the eschaton. Rather, he&#039;s resolving what he percieves as the dialectic. And crucially, the end state is not &quot;heaven on earth&quot; or the &quot;kingdom of heaven&quot; but the much more modest goal of what you call &quot;liberal Protestantism&quot;. It&#039;s Fukuyama without the self-doubt... Clearly, Bush believes that liberal democracy animated by a religious spirit (any religious spirit will do) is the highest &lt;i&gt;politcal order&lt;/i&gt;, and not the kingdom of heaven. If he were the religious revolutionary firebrand you and the article portray him as, why does he not bring the revolution home to America? The answer is, that his conception of the end state is quite modest and not even close to the Kingdom of Heaven... 

Another distinction, I&#039;ve always felt folks lose track of when discussing this issue is the distinction btwn churchmen vs individual actors. It seems clear to me that churchmen acting politcally as churchmen presents many of the problems you lament, but how can a religious individual (i.e. Bush or an evangelical) act politically in any way other than in light of religious certainty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Bush is trying to immanentize the eschaton. Rather, he&#8217;s resolving what he percieves as the dialectic. And crucially, the end state is not &#8220;heaven on earth&#8221; or the &#8220;kingdom of heaven&#8221; but the much more modest goal of what you call &#8220;liberal Protestantism&#8221;. It&#8217;s Fukuyama without the self-doubt&#8230; Clearly, Bush believes that liberal democracy animated by a religious spirit (any religious spirit will do) is the highest <i>politcal order</i>, and not the kingdom of heaven. If he were the religious revolutionary firebrand you and the article portray him as, why does he not bring the revolution home to America? The answer is, that his conception of the end state is quite modest and not even close to the Kingdom of Heaven&#8230; </p>
<p>Another distinction, I&#8217;ve always felt folks lose track of when discussing this issue is the distinction btwn churchmen vs individual actors. It seems clear to me that churchmen acting politcally as churchmen presents many of the problems you lament, but how can a religious individual (i.e. Bush or an evangelical) act politically in any way other than in light of religious certainty?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/05/faith-and-consequences/comment-page-1/#comment-10457</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 16:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/05/faith-and-consequences/#comment-10457</guid>
		<description>Now that I see your post, I know that I glanced at it, but yesterday it skipped my mind that you had already written a response.  My &quot;guess&quot; was probably more of a partial memory of what you had said.  Thanks for the comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now that I see your post, I know that I glanced at it, but yesterday it skipped my mind that you had already written a response.  My &#8220;guess&#8221; was probably more of a partial memory of what you had said.  Thanks for the comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell Arben Fox</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/05/faith-and-consequences/comment-page-1/#comment-10456</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Arben Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 16:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/05/faith-and-consequences/#comment-10456</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link, Daniel; you&#039;re substantively correct in your guess that I would &quot;probably agree to some of this but ultimately find [Damon&#039;s] critique to be overreaching.&quot; I also guessed that his first, inflammatory paragraph would distract many people from his later, arguably more sensible arguments; in that I suspect I was correct. But anyway, I did write a &lt;a href=&quot;http://inmedias.blogspot.com/2008/04/damon-linker-and-true-believers.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;long engagement&lt;/a&gt; with Damon&#039;s (and, indirectly, Marsh&#039;s) arguments back when this article first appeared; give it a read, if you&#039;d like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link, Daniel; you&#8217;re substantively correct in your guess that I would &#8220;probably agree to some of this but ultimately find [Damon's] critique to be overreaching.&#8221; I also guessed that his first, inflammatory paragraph would distract many people from his later, arguably more sensible arguments; in that I suspect I was correct. But anyway, I did write a <a href="http://inmedias.blogspot.com/2008/04/damon-linker-and-true-believers.html" rel="nofollow">long engagement</a> with Damon&#8217;s (and, indirectly, Marsh&#8217;s) arguments back when this article first appeared; give it a read, if you&#8217;d like.</p>
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		<title>By: Thursday</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/05/faith-and-consequences/comment-page-1/#comment-10451</link>
		<dc:creator>Thursday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 04:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/05/05/faith-and-consequences/#comment-10451</guid>
		<description>I have a &lt;a href=&quot;http://manwhoisthursday.blogspot.com/2008/05/supernaturalism-tradition-and-law.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;post&lt;/a&gt; up that notes how arbitrary the exclusion of religious motivations from policy is.  Isn&#039;t it funny how you can enact any non-rational idea as government policy, so long as you don&#039;t refer to supernatural.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a <a href="http://manwhoisthursday.blogspot.com/2008/05/supernaturalism-tradition-and-law.html" rel="nofollow">post</a> up that notes how arbitrary the exclusion of religious motivations from policy is.  Isn&#8217;t it funny how you can enact any non-rational idea as government policy, so long as you don&#8217;t refer to supernatural.</p>
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