Comments on: On Torture And Detainees http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/ n. the principle of good order<br /><br /> "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:02:13 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.3 hourly 1 By: Grumpy Old Man http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/comment-page-1/#comment-12206 Grumpy Old Man Mon, 14 Jul 2008 01:55:58 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/#comment-12206 James_Nostack: Some thoughts: 1. People are inured. The Nixon stuff was shocking. 2. The country appears to be under threat, ao people need to trust their leaders. 3. Who cares what happens to a bunch of sand-n****rs, anyway? 4. The civil liberties organizations have become so involved with PC, abortion, and other leftist nostrums, that the whole idea of civil liberties has a leftist flavor, that most Americans detest. We probably need a non-pink civil liberties organization. James_Nostack:

Some thoughts:

1. People are inured. The Nixon stuff was shocking.
2. The country appears to be under threat, ao people need to trust their leaders.
3. Who cares what happens to a bunch of sand-n****rs, anyway?
4. The civil liberties organizations have become so involved with PC, abortion, and other leftist nostrums, that the whole idea of civil liberties has a leftist flavor, that most Americans detest. We probably need a non-pink civil liberties organization.

]]> By: James_Nostack http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/comment-page-1/#comment-12205 James_Nostack Mon, 14 Jul 2008 01:44:52 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/#comment-12205 Grumpy Old Man wrote... "here’s hoping we have a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of this story" I wholeheartedly agree, but it's simply not going to happen--insisting that the government obey its laws would be dismissed as the backwards-looking vindictiveness of Radical Leftists, the people you've got to ignore if you're to be taken Seriously by the Serious People. And the public would yawn, roll over, and sleep a lot longer. The terrifying thing about America is that it appears as if all the various bits of constitutional machinery have broken <i>and nobody seems to give a damn</i> (aside from a few cranks on the Internet). We seem to have become a people incapable of governing ourselves. What was the public's reaction over Watergate? Were there quite as many people in the media apologizing for Nixon? Were there large segments of the public that worshipped him, no matter what he did? Why did that investigation go somewhere, whereas all this present stuff can be dismissed with a wave of the hand? Grumpy Old Man wrote…

“here’s hoping we have a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of this story”

I wholeheartedly agree, but it’s simply not going to happen–insisting that the government obey its laws would be dismissed as the backwards-looking vindictiveness of Radical Leftists, the people you’ve got to ignore if you’re to be taken Seriously by the Serious People. And the public would yawn, roll over, and sleep a lot longer.

The terrifying thing about America is that it appears as if all the various bits of constitutional machinery have broken and nobody seems to give a damn (aside from a few cranks on the Internet).

We seem to have become a people incapable of governing ourselves.

What was the public’s reaction over Watergate? Were there quite as many people in the media apologizing for Nixon? Were there large segments of the public that worshipped him, no matter what he did? Why did that investigation go somewhere, whereas all this present stuff can be dismissed with a wave of the hand?

]]> By: Grumpy Old Man http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/comment-page-1/#comment-12203 Grumpy Old Man Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:48:31 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/#comment-12203 It would be easy to understand some rough tactics in the immediate wake of 9/11. What is disgraceful is that our government embraced mistreatment and coercion of prisoners, many of them accidentally arrested, as national policy. As the facts come out, the extent of national disgrace becomes clearer. I'm no Obama fan, but if he wins, here's hoping we have a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of this story. It would be easy to understand some rough tactics in the immediate wake of 9/11. What is disgraceful is that our government embraced mistreatment and coercion of prisoners, many of them accidentally arrested, as national policy.

As the facts come out, the extent of national disgrace becomes clearer. I’m no Obama fan, but if he wins, here’s hoping we have a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of this story.

]]> By: HG http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/comment-page-1/#comment-12199 HG Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:24:24 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/#comment-12199 I haven't been reading your blog long enough to know if you've already written about this, and I'm too lazy to look through the archive, but the recently released Torture Team by Philippe Sands also does a superb job of tracing the development of the U.S. torture team. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91684540 My apologies if you're already aware of Sands' work. I haven’t been reading your blog long enough to know if you’ve already written about this, and I’m too lazy to look through the archive, but the recently released Torture Team by Philippe Sands also does a superb job of tracing the development of the U.S. torture team.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91684540

My apologies if you’re already aware of Sands’ work.

]]> By: Primigenius http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/comment-page-1/#comment-12198 Primigenius Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:31:11 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/#comment-12198 Re: James reply. I've been reading American History myself for over 45 years, and can find no parallel. But reading Gibbon's Decline and Fall presents numerous ones to our present situation in the U.S.: hyper-concentration of wealth in a minuscule segment of the populace, decreased or nonexistent economic mobility, and almost complete disaffection and disinterest amongst the governed. The parallels are both striking and utterly disheartening. A decade of the best education possible, if we could achieve it, is insufficient to remedy the willful ignorance of the last 30 years. To borrow and paraphrase an excellent quote from nearly a century ago, about another looming crisis, "the lights are going out all over the U.S. and I doubt we will see them go on again in our lifetime." Re: James reply. I’ve been reading American History myself for over 45 years, and can find no parallel. But reading Gibbon’s Decline and Fall presents numerous ones to our present situation in the U.S.: hyper-concentration of wealth in a minuscule segment of the populace, decreased or nonexistent economic mobility, and almost complete disaffection and disinterest amongst the governed. The parallels are both striking and utterly disheartening. A decade of the best education possible, if we could achieve it, is insufficient to remedy the willful ignorance of the last 30 years. To borrow and paraphrase an excellent quote from nearly a century ago, about another looming crisis, “the lights are going out all over the U.S. and I doubt we will see them go on again in our lifetime.”

]]> By: Continuum http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/comment-page-1/#comment-12191 Continuum Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:37:43 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/#comment-12191 Hopefully, this corrupt criminal conspiracy that is the Bush Administration will go quietly into the good night. One wonders what additional cravenness will occur as the Bush Administration faces their removal from power. Hopefully, this corrupt criminal conspiracy that is the Bush Administration will go quietly into the good night. One wonders what additional cravenness will occur as the Bush Administration faces their removal from power.

]]> By: Balloon Juice http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/comment-page-1/#comment-12190 Balloon Juice Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:37:10 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/#comment-12190 [...] Jim Henley is right- this Larison piece is spot on (and really, you all should be reading Larison and the AmConMag daily): [...] [...] Jim Henley is right- this Larison piece is spot on (and really, you all should be reading Larison and the AmConMag daily): [...]

]]> By: James_Nostack http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/comment-page-1/#comment-12183 James_Nostack Sun, 13 Jul 2008 03:58:05 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/#comment-12183 The widespread indifference to this lawlessness manages to frighten me even more than the lawlessness itself. Under the present administration, we have a criminal executive, a complicit or intimidated legislature, and a judiciary which (at least on the Guantanamo issue) has been exceedingly reluctant to exercise its power. Meanwhile the free press has proven itself too feckless to address the institutional crisis we are facing, and the citizenry is either too ignorant or too resigned to fulfill the basic civic responsibilities of a constitutional republic. I wish I knew more about American history so that I could comfort myself with any parallel. The widespread indifference to this lawlessness manages to frighten me even more than the lawlessness itself.

Under the present administration, we have a criminal executive, a complicit or intimidated legislature, and a judiciary which (at least on the Guantanamo issue) has been exceedingly reluctant to exercise its power. Meanwhile the free press has proven itself too feckless to address the institutional crisis we are facing, and the citizenry is either too ignorant or too resigned to fulfill the basic civic responsibilities of a constitutional republic.

I wish I knew more about American history so that I could comfort myself with any parallel.

]]> By: It Sometimes Is Strategic, and Sometimes Not at All § Unqualified Offerings http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/comment-page-1/#comment-12182 It Sometimes Is Strategic, and Sometimes Not at All § Unqualified Offerings Sun, 13 Jul 2008 02:59:10 +0000 http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/12/on-torture-and-detainees/#comment-12182 [...] Larison’s entry on the Jane Mayer book is word-perfect. To "pull a Paglia" for a minute, I’ll note that I said something similar way back in the early days of the blog: The arguments for torture and military tribunals are that terrorists don’t deserve the protections afforded in ordinary criminal cases, because terrorists aren’t ordinary criminals. Torturing information out of a terrorist might, we are told, save literally millions of lives if it enables the government to foil a biological attack, or tens of thousands of lives if it stops a nuke. And letting a terrorist off because of technicalities in civil proceedings means justice denied and danger ahead. [...] [...] Larison’s entry on the Jane Mayer book is word-perfect. To "pull a Paglia" for a minute, I’ll note that I said something similar way back in the early days of the blog: The arguments for torture and military tribunals are that terrorists don’t deserve the protections afforded in ordinary criminal cases, because terrorists aren’t ordinary criminals. Torturing information out of a terrorist might, we are told, save literally millions of lives if it enables the government to foil a biological attack, or tens of thousands of lives if it stops a nuke. And letting a terrorist off because of technicalities in civil proceedings means justice denied and danger ahead. [...]

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