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	<title>Comments on: Definitely Not Helping</title>
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	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: The Personal Is&#8230; Kinda-Sorta Political? &#171; Brave New World Watch</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12284</link>
		<dc:creator>The Personal Is&#8230; Kinda-Sorta Political? &#171; Brave New World Watch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12284</guid>
		<description>[...] This is very reminiscent of the behavior we saw last month when I commented on the NYT article that claimed homosexual &#8220;marriage&#8221; was better than traditional marriage. Liberal commenters claimed that conservatives were reading into the article something that wasn&#8217;t there. The typical leftist M.O. is to claim that something much less radical is being advocated (e.g. a new way of life as &#8220;equal&#8221;, rather than better, compared to the traditional way), and that those who don&#8217;t see how unseriously the claim is allegedly meant are just stupid or unappreciative of nuance. (Compare the New Yorker cover &#8220;satirizing&#8221; people who believe Obama is a Muslim.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This is very reminiscent of the behavior we saw last month when I commented on the NYT article that claimed homosexual &#8220;marriage&#8221; was better than traditional marriage. Liberal commenters claimed that conservatives were reading into the article something that wasn&#8217;t there. The typical leftist M.O. is to claim that something much less radical is being advocated (e.g. a new way of life as &#8220;equal&#8221;, rather than better, compared to the traditional way), and that those who don&#8217;t see how unseriously the claim is allegedly meant are just stupid or unappreciative of nuance. (Compare the New Yorker cover &#8220;satirizing&#8221; people who believe Obama is a Muslim.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: HG</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12249</link>
		<dc:creator>HG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12249</guid>
		<description>Here

http://dailydoubt.blogspot.com/2008/07/problem-with-new-yorker-obama-cover.html

I turned my comment into a post with some quotes from The Authoritarians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here</p>
<p><a href="http://dailydoubt.blogspot.com/2008/07/problem-with-new-yorker-obama-cover.html" rel="nofollow">http://dailydoubt.blogspot.com/2008/07/problem-with-new-yorker-obama-cover.html</a></p>
<p>I turned my comment into a post with some quotes from The Authoritarians.</p>
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		<title>By: HG</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12248</link>
		<dc:creator>HG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12248</guid>
		<description>The problem with the cover is that it isn&#039;t satire. If I didn&#039;t know it was from the New Yorker I&#039;d assume it was a cover of Newsmax or National Review or something. Media Matters has a bit up today about G. Gordon Liddy saying that the New Yorker finally got Obama right.

Satire is supposed to ridicule or scorn or make views look ridiculous. The New Yorker seems to think that the depiction itself is sufficient to accomplish that, but the bar for satire in America has been raised because that are self-evidently ludicrous have been elevated to mainstream respectability. Dear god, I flipped to CNN HN one night to see Jonah Goldberg and Glenn Beck informing me that Captain Planet is fascist propaganda which is part of the LIberal Fascist plan to created a one world government!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with the cover is that it isn&#8217;t satire. If I didn&#8217;t know it was from the New Yorker I&#8217;d assume it was a cover of Newsmax or National Review or something. Media Matters has a bit up today about G. Gordon Liddy saying that the New Yorker finally got Obama right.</p>
<p>Satire is supposed to ridicule or scorn or make views look ridiculous. The New Yorker seems to think that the depiction itself is sufficient to accomplish that, but the bar for satire in America has been raised because that are self-evidently ludicrous have been elevated to mainstream respectability. Dear god, I flipped to CNN HN one night to see Jonah Goldberg and Glenn Beck informing me that Captain Planet is fascist propaganda which is part of the LIberal Fascist plan to created a one world government!</p>
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		<title>By: Eunomia &#187; The Power Of Images</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12240</link>
		<dc:creator>Eunomia &#187; The Power Of Images</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12240</guid>
		<description>[...] Definitely Not Helping&#160;&#160;10 nhgriffin003, conradg, Benny One Six [...] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Definitely Not Helping&nbsp;&nbsp;10 nhgriffin003, conradg, Benny One Six [...] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: nhgriffin003</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12239</link>
		<dc:creator>nhgriffin003</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12239</guid>
		<description>I agree that some people get the wrong idea about the picture, but I have to wonder, would these people have voted for Obama if they harbored these concerns in the first place? The &quot;elites&quot; will be offended, but won&#039;t change their vote. As such, I don&#039;t think the picture will help Obama, but will only damage his nonexistent support of voters that questioned his patriotism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that some people get the wrong idea about the picture, but I have to wonder, would these people have voted for Obama if they harbored these concerns in the first place? The &#8220;elites&#8221; will be offended, but won&#8217;t change their vote. As such, I don&#8217;t think the picture will help Obama, but will only damage his nonexistent support of voters that questioned his patriotism.</p>
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		<title>By: conradg</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12237</link>
		<dc:creator>conradg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12237</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have much to say about this cartoon, except that it&#039;s very, very funny. Tastes differ. I&#039;m not condescending enough to imagine I know how it will &quot;play&quot; among those &quot;less sophisticated&quot; than the average New Yorker subscriber. My guess, however, is the people are as usual underestimating the sense of humor of those classes they consider beneath themselves. I&#039;m not sure it hurts Obama. It continues to develop the meme that it&#039;s all about Obama. And more importantly, it gives us insight into how comedians plan on making Obama funny - a challenge to be sure. For Clinton, they settled on blow jobs, for Bush, it&#039;s stupidity. For Obama, it seems to be outrageous claims that he&#039;s a secret muslim terrorist. The difference here is a subtle implication that it&#039;s not Obama himself who is funny, but the people who ridicule him. That&#039;s not a bad way of being comedically targeted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have much to say about this cartoon, except that it&#8217;s very, very funny. Tastes differ. I&#8217;m not condescending enough to imagine I know how it will &#8220;play&#8221; among those &#8220;less sophisticated&#8221; than the average New Yorker subscriber. My guess, however, is the people are as usual underestimating the sense of humor of those classes they consider beneath themselves. I&#8217;m not sure it hurts Obama. It continues to develop the meme that it&#8217;s all about Obama. And more importantly, it gives us insight into how comedians plan on making Obama funny &#8211; a challenge to be sure. For Clinton, they settled on blow jobs, for Bush, it&#8217;s stupidity. For Obama, it seems to be outrageous claims that he&#8217;s a secret muslim terrorist. The difference here is a subtle implication that it&#8217;s not Obama himself who is funny, but the people who ridicule him. That&#8217;s not a bad way of being comedically targeted.</p>
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		<title>By: Benny One Six</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12230</link>
		<dc:creator>Benny One Six</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 18:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12230</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;In an era of instant, mass communication, the image will be, indeed already has been, circulated widely and will gradually lose whatever â€œironicâ€ edge it once had.&lt;/i&gt;

Excellent. Cuts right to the heart of the matter. It&#039;s a striking image and will be around forever...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>In an era of instant, mass communication, the image will be, indeed already has been, circulated widely and will gradually lose whatever â€œironicâ€ edge it once had.</i></p>
<p>Excellent. Cuts right to the heart of the matter. It&#8217;s a striking image and will be around forever&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12229</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12229</guid>
		<description>On the other hand, I wonder if the editors who approved the cover even care about these larger issues.  They may not, and probably should not.  They&#039;re trying to amuse/inform/stimulate their readers; they aren&#039;t a subsidiary of the Obama campaign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the other hand, I wonder if the editors who approved the cover even care about these larger issues.  They may not, and probably should not.  They&#8217;re trying to amuse/inform/stimulate their readers; they aren&#8217;t a subsidiary of the Obama campaign.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12227</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12227</guid>
		<description>That could be.  It could turn on how Obama&#039;s supporters are perceived, that could make many voters question whether they want to &quot;associate&quot; with those sorts of people by voting for him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That could be.  It could turn on how Obama&#8217;s supporters are perceived, that could make many voters question whether they want to &#8220;associate&#8221; with those sorts of people by voting for him.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12226</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12226</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Suppose someone sees this and knows nothing about the magazine, except its name, and concludes that this is some East Coast urban liberal publication that is *celebrating* the outcome portrayed on the cover, and that the scene is not the â€œnightmare scenarioâ€ of someone else but the dream scenario of the people at that magazine.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m not sure many people would conclude that the editors of the New Yorker literally want a Muslim president who&#039;d burn the American flag, and a terrorist for a First Lady.  What&#039;s more likely is that this &quot;defense&quot; of Obama might come off like &quot;defenses&quot; of George W. Bush&#039;s alleged cowboy qualities.  A lot of war supporters reveled in that characterization of Bush, and said things like, &quot;Damn right he&#039;s a cowboy, and he&#039;s going to drag the black hats out of the saloon and show them who&#039;s boss!&quot;  That turns out to have been a poor forecast of how things would go in Iraq, but even at the time it could only alienate people who weren&#039;t already 100 percent supportive of Bush and his policies.

Similarly, this New Yorker cover can be read as a defense of a lot of policies and ideas supported by people who work at the New Yorker and read the New Yorker.  &quot;We want a better relationship with the Arab world; we wouldn&#039;t really care if the US president were a Muslim; we don&#039;t think flag burning should be illegal; we think that 60s-era radicals and various Kalashnikov-wielding leftist revolutionaries may have had a few good points; etc.&quot;  The effect isn&#039;t to say, &quot;Ha, these conspiracy theories are silly.&quot;  It&#039;s to say, &quot;Ha, the average American&#039;s sense of where the country would end up if New Yorker readers/writers were in charge is silly.&quot;

Just as responding to a charge of recklessness by saying, &quot;Damn right Bush is a cowboy&quot; just made the guy and his supporters seem even less serious and less responsible, responding to these rumors by saying, &quot;Ha, ha, what if Obama WERE a secret Muslim?&quot; may just reinforce the idea that he&#039;s a cosmopolitan elitist whose candidacy lights the fires of--and should ONLY light the fires of--other cosmopolitan elitists.  Your average undecided voter--whether or not he understands the alleged subtleties of this parody--probably doesn&#039;t think it&#039;s very funny to depict a portrait of bin Laden hanging in the Oval Office, and they probably wonder what kind of a candidate would draw the support of people who find that sort of thing to be the height of sophisticated wit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Suppose someone sees this and knows nothing about the magazine, except its name, and concludes that this is some East Coast urban liberal publication that is *celebrating* the outcome portrayed on the cover, and that the scene is not the â€œnightmare scenarioâ€ of someone else but the dream scenario of the people at that magazine.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure many people would conclude that the editors of the New Yorker literally want a Muslim president who&#8217;d burn the American flag, and a terrorist for a First Lady.  What&#8217;s more likely is that this &#8220;defense&#8221; of Obama might come off like &#8220;defenses&#8221; of George W. Bush&#8217;s alleged cowboy qualities.  A lot of war supporters reveled in that characterization of Bush, and said things like, &#8220;Damn right he&#8217;s a cowboy, and he&#8217;s going to drag the black hats out of the saloon and show them who&#8217;s boss!&#8221;  That turns out to have been a poor forecast of how things would go in Iraq, but even at the time it could only alienate people who weren&#8217;t already 100 percent supportive of Bush and his policies.</p>
<p>Similarly, this New Yorker cover can be read as a defense of a lot of policies and ideas supported by people who work at the New Yorker and read the New Yorker.  &#8220;We want a better relationship with the Arab world; we wouldn&#8217;t really care if the US president were a Muslim; we don&#8217;t think flag burning should be illegal; we think that 60s-era radicals and various Kalashnikov-wielding leftist revolutionaries may have had a few good points; etc.&#8221;  The effect isn&#8217;t to say, &#8220;Ha, these conspiracy theories are silly.&#8221;  It&#8217;s to say, &#8220;Ha, the average American&#8217;s sense of where the country would end up if New Yorker readers/writers were in charge is silly.&#8221;</p>
<p>Just as responding to a charge of recklessness by saying, &#8220;Damn right Bush is a cowboy&#8221; just made the guy and his supporters seem even less serious and less responsible, responding to these rumors by saying, &#8220;Ha, ha, what if Obama WERE a secret Muslim?&#8221; may just reinforce the idea that he&#8217;s a cosmopolitan elitist whose candidacy lights the fires of&#8211;and should ONLY light the fires of&#8211;other cosmopolitan elitists.  Your average undecided voter&#8211;whether or not he understands the alleged subtleties of this parody&#8211;probably doesn&#8217;t think it&#8217;s very funny to depict a portrait of bin Laden hanging in the Oval Office, and they probably wonder what kind of a candidate would draw the support of people who find that sort of thing to be the height of sophisticated wit.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12225</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:41:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12225</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s an interesting point, and it made me think of something else.  Suppose someone sees this and knows nothing about the magazine, except its name, and concludes that this is some East Coast urban liberal publication that is *celebrating* the outcome portrayed on the cover, and that the scene is not the &quot;nightmare scenario&quot; of someone else but the dream scenario of the people at that magazine.  That would seem crazy and even more &quot;paranoid,&quot; as Sullivan calls it, but there are plenty of people who believe, or have been conditioned to believe, that this is the outcome desired by anyone who isn&#039;t fully on board with the &quot;war on terror&quot; and who opposes the war in Iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s an interesting point, and it made me think of something else.  Suppose someone sees this and knows nothing about the magazine, except its name, and concludes that this is some East Coast urban liberal publication that is *celebrating* the outcome portrayed on the cover, and that the scene is not the &#8220;nightmare scenario&#8221; of someone else but the dream scenario of the people at that magazine.  That would seem crazy and even more &#8220;paranoid,&#8221; as Sullivan calls it, but there are plenty of people who believe, or have been conditioned to believe, that this is the outcome desired by anyone who isn&#8217;t fully on board with the &#8220;war on terror&#8221; and who opposes the war in Iraq.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12224</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12224</guid>
		<description>I also think it could hurt him with some undecided voters even if those voters understand the New Yorker&#039;s intentions perfectly well.  If an undecided voter wonders whether Obama is an elitist who secretly thinks the average American is an idiot, and also a cosmopolitan who thinks we&#039;d all be better off if we were more like Europeans (or Manhattanites), then it won&#039;t help to have perhaps the most elitist and cosmopolitan magazine in the country saying, in effect, &quot;Ha, ha, your concerns are absurd and you&#039;re only worried because you&#039;re a moron.&quot;

I guess the impact of this is blunted by the fact that the average voter doesn&#039;t know or care what the New Yorker has to say about anything.  The question is, can both lines of attack be employed by anti-Obama people who reach a broader audience?  In other words, can they say, &quot;This cover shows that these rumors you&#039;re hearing have a basis in fact, even though those pro-Obama snobs at the New Yorker are trying to make you feel like an idiot for being worried&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also think it could hurt him with some undecided voters even if those voters understand the New Yorker&#8217;s intentions perfectly well.  If an undecided voter wonders whether Obama is an elitist who secretly thinks the average American is an idiot, and also a cosmopolitan who thinks we&#8217;d all be better off if we were more like Europeans (or Manhattanites), then it won&#8217;t help to have perhaps the most elitist and cosmopolitan magazine in the country saying, in effect, &#8220;Ha, ha, your concerns are absurd and you&#8217;re only worried because you&#8217;re a moron.&#8221;</p>
<p>I guess the impact of this is blunted by the fact that the average voter doesn&#8217;t know or care what the New Yorker has to say about anything.  The question is, can both lines of attack be employed by anti-Obama people who reach a broader audience?  In other words, can they say, &#8220;This cover shows that these rumors you&#8217;re hearing have a basis in fact, even though those pro-Obama snobs at the New Yorker are trying to make you feel like an idiot for being worried&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12223</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12223</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a fair point.  I guess I can see how the entire controversy might stay contained among political junkies and bloggers who keep speculating about its effects, but it also seems tailor-made for the chain e-mails that have been going around for months.  The thing is that the high-information liberal voters are offended because they know the portayal is false (and they object to the use of stereotypes, and so on).  Many undecided voters--the people who still don&#039;t know which candidate is opposed to the war, for example--don&#039;t know enough about the Obamas to have any idea whether it is false or not, and it creates a bad visual association with the candidate.  Maybe it will end up doing little to harm him, but it certainly isn&#039;t helping in any way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a fair point.  I guess I can see how the entire controversy might stay contained among political junkies and bloggers who keep speculating about its effects, but it also seems tailor-made for the chain e-mails that have been going around for months.  The thing is that the high-information liberal voters are offended because they know the portayal is false (and they object to the use of stereotypes, and so on).  Many undecided voters&#8211;the people who still don&#8217;t know which candidate is opposed to the war, for example&#8211;don&#8217;t know enough about the Obamas to have any idea whether it is false or not, and it creates a bad visual association with the candidate.  Maybe it will end up doing little to harm him, but it certainly isn&#8217;t helping in any way.</p>
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		<title>By: azizhp</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12221</link>
		<dc:creator>azizhp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:15:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12221</guid>
		<description>I have to disagree with you also, Daniel. In a utshell, the people most likely to be offended are the high-information liberal voters. And the low-information ones arent going to be influenced one way or another by this, because they are low-information. I explain in more detail &lt;a href=&quot;http://dean2004.blogspot.com/2008/07/in-defense-of-new-yorker-cover.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;at Nation-Building&lt;a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to disagree with you also, Daniel. In a utshell, the people most likely to be offended are the high-information liberal voters. And the low-information ones arent going to be influenced one way or another by this, because they are low-information. I explain in more detail <a href="http://dean2004.blogspot.com/2008/07/in-defense-of-new-yorker-cover.html" rel="nofollow">at Nation-Building</a><a>.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Balloon Juice</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/comment-page-1/#comment-12220</link>
		<dc:creator>Balloon Juice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/07/14/definitely-not-helping/#comment-12220</guid>
		<description>[...] Larison explains why I am wrong: [...]</description>
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