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	<title>Comments on: Betrayals</title>
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	<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/comment-page-1/#comment-15435</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/#comment-15435</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s not a bad attempt, but I think there is a difference between saying, &quot;Obama is more conservative than McCain,&quot; which I might grant you, and &quot;conservatives should vote for Obama&quot; or &quot;there is a positive conservative case for Obama.&quot;  There are some things conservatives can find in Obama that they might prefer over McCain, but I don&#039;t think a conservative qua conservative can make a positive case for why he is backing Obama, except that Obama is not McCain.  Even an &quot;Obama is the lesser of two evils&quot; case is another way of saying Obama is not McCain, and against almost any other Republican this &quot;lesser of two evils&quot; argument would not hold up nearly as well.  Some will say that this is enough and the case has been made, but if that&#039;s so the case was made before you began.

There are also some flaws in the case you&#039;ve made.  For example, you say &quot;he came out in opposition to stupid wars,&quot; when he has, in fact, come out in opposition to exactly one stupid war since entering public life.  One of the stupid wars he endorsed, or at least acquiesced in supporting, was the Israeli campaign against Lebanon, which most everyone, especially the Israelis, now sees to have been a fairly stupid, counterproductive war.  So at best he&#039;s batting .500, and the direction of his Pakistan policy is not reassuring.  I&#039;m not going to say that he&#039;s more belligerent than McCain, because I don&#039;t think that&#039;s humanly possible, but I would say that things are a bit more complicated than the phrase &quot;he came out in opposition to stupid wars&quot; suggests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s not a bad attempt, but I think there is a difference between saying, &#8220;Obama is more conservative than McCain,&#8221; which I might grant you, and &#8220;conservatives should vote for Obama&#8221; or &#8220;there is a positive conservative case for Obama.&#8221;  There are some things conservatives can find in Obama that they might prefer over McCain, but I don&#8217;t think a conservative qua conservative can make a positive case for why he is backing Obama, except that Obama is not McCain.  Even an &#8220;Obama is the lesser of two evils&#8221; case is another way of saying Obama is not McCain, and against almost any other Republican this &#8220;lesser of two evils&#8221; argument would not hold up nearly as well.  Some will say that this is enough and the case has been made, but if that&#8217;s so the case was made before you began.</p>
<p>There are also some flaws in the case you&#8217;ve made.  For example, you say &#8220;he came out in opposition to stupid wars,&#8221; when he has, in fact, come out in opposition to exactly one stupid war since entering public life.  One of the stupid wars he endorsed, or at least acquiesced in supporting, was the Israeli campaign against Lebanon, which most everyone, especially the Israelis, now sees to have been a fairly stupid, counterproductive war.  So at best he&#8217;s batting .500, and the direction of his Pakistan policy is not reassuring.  I&#8217;m not going to say that he&#8217;s more belligerent than McCain, because I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s humanly possible, but I would say that things are a bit more complicated than the phrase &#8220;he came out in opposition to stupid wars&#8221; suggests.</p>
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		<title>By: Elvis Elvisberg</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/comment-page-1/#comment-15433</link>
		<dc:creator>Elvis Elvisberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/#comment-15433</guid>
		<description>Well, I&#039;ll offer a conservative defense of Obama: his plans add less to the debt than McCain&#039;s, he came out in opposition to stupid wars whereas McCain began agitating to invade Iraq on about 9/13/01, he has consistently voted against government torture, he has no allegiance to the lunatic dogma that cutting tax rates always reduces deficits, and, while it&#039;s debatable, I think he&#039;s less likely than McCain to embrace the Bush security state.

Those positions would all have been recognized as conservative by Eisenhower, and maybe even by Reagan, but as NickM points out, the Central Committee of the Party may have decreed them to be politically incorrect.  They might come back into vogue among tribal Republicans if there&#039;s a Democratic president, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;ll offer a conservative defense of Obama: his plans add less to the debt than McCain&#8217;s, he came out in opposition to stupid wars whereas McCain began agitating to invade Iraq on about 9/13/01, he has consistently voted against government torture, he has no allegiance to the lunatic dogma that cutting tax rates always reduces deficits, and, while it&#8217;s debatable, I think he&#8217;s less likely than McCain to embrace the Bush security state.</p>
<p>Those positions would all have been recognized as conservative by Eisenhower, and maybe even by Reagan, but as NickM points out, the Central Committee of the Party may have decreed them to be politically incorrect.  They might come back into vogue among tribal Republicans if there&#8217;s a Democratic president, though.</p>
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		<title>By: NickM</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/comment-page-1/#comment-15427</link>
		<dc:creator>NickM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/#comment-15427</guid>
		<description>&quot;It is always interesting to me how the people who write these sorts of letters are moved to anger when this or that pundit voices a dissenting view because they are so concerned about treachery, but when the President or other leaders of their preferred party enact plainly anti-conservative policies they are not seen as having betrayed anything.&quot;

Pointing, I think, to the fact that what is foremost to the movement is loyalty to the tribe or &quot;family,&quot; which at its core stays largely the same, and not to its ideological trappings, which are apparently subject to rapid change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It is always interesting to me how the people who write these sorts of letters are moved to anger when this or that pundit voices a dissenting view because they are so concerned about treachery, but when the President or other leaders of their preferred party enact plainly anti-conservative policies they are not seen as having betrayed anything.&#8221;</p>
<p>Pointing, I think, to the fact that what is foremost to the movement is loyalty to the tribe or &#8220;family,&#8221; which at its core stays largely the same, and not to its ideological trappings, which are apparently subject to rapid change.</p>
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		<title>By: kitstolz</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/comment-page-1/#comment-15419</link>
		<dc:creator>kitstolz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 04:31:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/#comment-15419</guid>
		<description>Christopher Buckley is a genuine wit and a charming fellow, author of &quot;Thank You for Smoking,&quot; among other comic gems. (His father also had  talent, although as a novelist, the son is much funnier.) The right-wing opinion journal to which he once contributed found clever little ways to slight his work and minimize his defection, but regardless of his political opinions, he&#039;s just the sort of talent the right needs to be taken seriously among the upper-crust. The Limbaugh crowd may not care about that, but if the so-called conservative movement can&#039;t keep its best and brightest on board, it will find itself pandering to the know-nothings...a dead-end street if there ever was one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christopher Buckley is a genuine wit and a charming fellow, author of &#8220;Thank You for Smoking,&#8221; among other comic gems. (His father also had  talent, although as a novelist, the son is much funnier.) The right-wing opinion journal to which he once contributed found clever little ways to slight his work and minimize his defection, but regardless of his political opinions, he&#8217;s just the sort of talent the right needs to be taken seriously among the upper-crust. The Limbaugh crowd may not care about that, but if the so-called conservative movement can&#8217;t keep its best and brightest on board, it will find itself pandering to the know-nothings&#8230;a dead-end street if there ever was one.</p>
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		<title>By: Lord Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/comment-page-1/#comment-15415</link>
		<dc:creator>Lord Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 02:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/#comment-15415</guid>
		<description>Sirs:

Pray tell, who is the Buckley chap and what is this thing called the National Review?  Should I care about either?

Yours,

Lord Peter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sirs:</p>
<p>Pray tell, who is the Buckley chap and what is this thing called the National Review?  Should I care about either?</p>
<p>Yours,</p>
<p>Lord Peter</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/comment-page-1/#comment-15404</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/#comment-15404</guid>
		<description>My reply to the interesting comments would be that I don&#039;t care about Buckley, whether as opportunist or would-be persecuted dissident.  His case serves as an interesting one because it shows what people value and what they are willing to define as betrayal; it is a useful reminder of how empty party loyalty is.

To answer Mr. Copold, I think we would agree that there has been no brave dissent here.  It takes little courage to endorse someone who is about to win a landslide, and it is not much of a dissent when your endorsement says, &quot;I agree with nothing he stands for, but goodness he writes well.&quot;  Of course he&#039;s getting off the sinking ship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My reply to the interesting comments would be that I don&#8217;t care about Buckley, whether as opportunist or would-be persecuted dissident.  His case serves as an interesting one because it shows what people value and what they are willing to define as betrayal; it is a useful reminder of how empty party loyalty is.</p>
<p>To answer Mr. Copold, I think we would agree that there has been no brave dissent here.  It takes little courage to endorse someone who is about to win a landslide, and it is not much of a dissent when your endorsement says, &#8220;I agree with nothing he stands for, but goodness he writes well.&#8221;  Of course he&#8217;s getting off the sinking ship.</p>
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		<title>By: jetan</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/comment-page-1/#comment-15402</link>
		<dc:creator>jetan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:23:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/#comment-15402</guid>
		<description>For many years, I had a friend to argue with....everyone needs one of those. Then he acquired terminal cancer and up and died. I miss him a lot. 

I have something of the same feeling about the conservative movement. Who would have thought that I would live to see CB drummed out of his Dad&#039;s magazine? But that doesn&#039;t shock me half as much as reading Rich Lowry assert, all evidence to the contrary, that the bank bailout &quot;isn&#039;t socialism&quot;. Well, I don&#039;t know if it&#039;s &quot;according-to-Hoyle&quot; socialism or not, but I do know that within the last 20 years or so anyone who supported it would have been run out the movement with a quickness. Lowry further asserts that it&#039;s &quot;temporary emergency measure&quot; - at what point did National Review start believing that government was even capable of &quot;temporary&quot; measures? And when did their faith in capitalism start to falter? Had Obama had the bad judgment to go first on this grab (not that I think he would have had the audacity to suggest a $700 billion figure, in any event), the RNC would be running commercial morphing him into Chairman Mao.

In years past, while you might not know what a Republican would do, you could be pretty sure what a conservative of either party would say on a whole host of issues. Goodbye to all that, I guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For many years, I had a friend to argue with&#8230;.everyone needs one of those. Then he acquired terminal cancer and up and died. I miss him a lot. </p>
<p>I have something of the same feeling about the conservative movement. Who would have thought that I would live to see CB drummed out of his Dad&#8217;s magazine? But that doesn&#8217;t shock me half as much as reading Rich Lowry assert, all evidence to the contrary, that the bank bailout &#8220;isn&#8217;t socialism&#8221;. Well, I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s &#8220;according-to-Hoyle&#8221; socialism or not, but I do know that within the last 20 years or so anyone who supported it would have been run out the movement with a quickness. Lowry further asserts that it&#8217;s &#8220;temporary emergency measure&#8221; &#8211; at what point did National Review start believing that government was even capable of &#8220;temporary&#8221; measures? And when did their faith in capitalism start to falter? Had Obama had the bad judgment to go first on this grab (not that I think he would have had the audacity to suggest a $700 billion figure, in any event), the RNC would be running commercial morphing him into Chairman Mao.</p>
<p>In years past, while you might not know what a Republican would do, you could be pretty sure what a conservative of either party would say on a whole host of issues. Goodbye to all that, I guess.</p>
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		<title>By: Grumpy Old Man</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/comment-page-1/#comment-15397</link>
		<dc:creator>Grumpy Old Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:09:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/#comment-15397</guid>
		<description>The angry reaction ia partly an identity issue, and partly a product of the fear of being tongue-tied. If you have to explain yourself (&quot;I&#039;m a conservative, but I don&#039;t like Bush, because . . . &quot; or any variant), you&#039;re forced to articulate your reasoning and at display at least a bit of subtlety on the issues. 

Most people can&#039;t, and prefer to say &quot;I&#039;m a conservative,&quot; or &quot;I vote Republican&quot;), thus avoiding having to explain why. The alternative, to be a political &lt;i&gt;rara avis&lt;/i&gt; is like being the only Zoroastrian at an interfaith dinner, a bit lonely and obliged to handle more than one&#039;s share of double-takes and questioning.

Anyone who dares to abandon the protection of the conventional and convenient labels is, therefore, more than a bit threatening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The angry reaction ia partly an identity issue, and partly a product of the fear of being tongue-tied. If you have to explain yourself (&#8221;I&#8217;m a conservative, but I don&#8217;t like Bush, because . . . &#8221; or any variant), you&#8217;re forced to articulate your reasoning and at display at least a bit of subtlety on the issues. </p>
<p>Most people can&#8217;t, and prefer to say &#8220;I&#8217;m a conservative,&#8221; or &#8220;I vote Republican&#8221;), thus avoiding having to explain why. The alternative, to be a political <i>rara avis</i> is like being the only Zoroastrian at an interfaith dinner, a bit lonely and obliged to handle more than one&#8217;s share of double-takes and questioning.</p>
<p>Anyone who dares to abandon the protection of the conventional and convenient labels is, therefore, more than a bit threatening.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Piatak</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/comment-page-1/#comment-15395</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Piatak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/#comment-15395</guid>
		<description>Derek Copold is exactly right.  Way too much ink is being spilled on Buckley&#039;s endorsement of Obama.  Buckley is a typical publicity-seeking Beltway opportunist, nothing more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek Copold is exactly right.  Way too much ink is being spilled on Buckley&#8217;s endorsement of Obama.  Buckley is a typical publicity-seeking Beltway opportunist, nothing more.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Copold</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/comment-page-1/#comment-15394</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Copold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:45:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/10/14/betrayals/#comment-15394</guid>
		<description>Count me a cynic on Christopher Buckley.  He writes his grand Obama endorsement one day, and then hypes up his resignation with a few kicks at his readership, playing the persecuted heretic all along.  I think he&#039;s striving to be the next &quot;even&quot;, as in &quot;Even Kevin Phillips agrees that bill x is necessary&quot; or &quot;Even David Gergen is behind this initiative.&quot;  This stinks of rats and sinking ships.

And where was Mr. Brave Dissent back in 2002, or even 2004, when it might have done some good--you know, when the rest of us dissenters were being labeled &quot;Unpatriotic Conservatives&quot; by peripatetic Canadians.  Maybe he was the voice of reason, arguing for open debate, but I don&#039;t remember it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Count me a cynic on Christopher Buckley.  He writes his grand Obama endorsement one day, and then hypes up his resignation with a few kicks at his readership, playing the persecuted heretic all along.  I think he&#8217;s striving to be the next &#8220;even&#8221;, as in &#8220;Even Kevin Phillips agrees that bill x is necessary&#8221; or &#8220;Even David Gergen is behind this initiative.&#8221;  This stinks of rats and sinking ships.</p>
<p>And where was Mr. Brave Dissent back in 2002, or even 2004, when it might have done some good&#8211;you know, when the rest of us dissenters were being labeled &#8220;Unpatriotic Conservatives&#8221; by peripatetic Canadians.  Maybe he was the voice of reason, arguing for open debate, but I don&#8217;t remember it.</p>
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