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	<title>Comments on: Never Before</title>
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	<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18876</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18876</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Then you use the internet combat bad assumptions.&lt;/i&gt;

I agree that that&#039;s what one should try to do, and it&#039;s certainly possible to do it successfully, I just don&#039;t agree that it&#039;s easier to &quot;combat bad assumptions&quot; in the age of the internet than it was before the late 1990s.  I hope I&#039;m wrong, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Then you use the internet combat bad assumptions.</i></p>
<p>I agree that that&#8217;s what one should try to do, and it&#8217;s certainly possible to do it successfully, I just don&#8217;t agree that it&#8217;s easier to &#8220;combat bad assumptions&#8221; in the age of the internet than it was before the late 1990s.  I hope I&#8217;m wrong, though.</p>
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		<title>By: rawshark</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18872</link>
		<dc:creator>rawshark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18872</guid>
		<description>&#039;If they were suppressed or ignored before now theyâ€™re exposed to such ferocious ridicule that people assume they must be ridiculous.&#039;

Then you use the internet combat bad assumptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;If they were suppressed or ignored before now theyâ€™re exposed to such ferocious ridicule that people assume they must be ridiculous.&#8217;</p>
<p>Then you use the internet combat bad assumptions.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18861</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18861</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What was it Leo Strauss said; empirical truth interferes with maintaining order, I think. Basically we canâ€™t fool them into following us if they have access to the truth. Uninventing the internet would help the rights cause I would think.&lt;/i&gt;

It makes sense that the internet would allow for facts and dissenting opinions to be distributed more widely and to some extent that&#039;s been the case.  But even in the internet age dissenting views and inconvenient facts are marginalized.  If they were suppressed or ignored before now they&#039;re exposed to such ferocious ridicule that people assume they must be ridiculous.

If you look at the major political decisions made in the age of the internet (going to war in Iraq, this fall&#039;s bailout, etc.) it&#039;s hard to argue that it&#039;s now &lt;i&gt;harder&lt;/i&gt; to justify bad policy with lies and distortions.  I suppose one could argue that the decline of National Review&#039;s reputation, and the resulting (one hopes) decline of its ability to excommunicate &quot;heretical&quot; conservatives, is a consequence of the internet age.  But I&#039;d blame Lowry&#039;s unwillingness or inability to manage the magazine, rather than the internet per se, for the embarrassing garbage that routinely clogs up that website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What was it Leo Strauss said; empirical truth interferes with maintaining order, I think. Basically we canâ€™t fool them into following us if they have access to the truth. Uninventing the internet would help the rights cause I would think.</i></p>
<p>It makes sense that the internet would allow for facts and dissenting opinions to be distributed more widely and to some extent that&#8217;s been the case.  But even in the internet age dissenting views and inconvenient facts are marginalized.  If they were suppressed or ignored before now they&#8217;re exposed to such ferocious ridicule that people assume they must be ridiculous.</p>
<p>If you look at the major political decisions made in the age of the internet (going to war in Iraq, this fall&#8217;s bailout, etc.) it&#8217;s hard to argue that it&#8217;s now <i>harder</i> to justify bad policy with lies and distortions.  I suppose one could argue that the decline of National Review&#8217;s reputation, and the resulting (one hopes) decline of its ability to excommunicate &#8220;heretical&#8221; conservatives, is a consequence of the internet age.  But I&#8217;d blame Lowry&#8217;s unwillingness or inability to manage the magazine, rather than the internet per se, for the embarrassing garbage that routinely clogs up that website.</p>
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		<title>By: jetan</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18856</link>
		<dc:creator>jetan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18856</guid>
		<description>bayesian

Yeah, sorry for the spelling, I was channeling General Ripper from Dr. Strangelove instead of checking my toothpaste tube. Like you, I assumed that it was an issue from the ancient days, like when  Elvis was supposed to be a communist tool (somewhere I have a copy of  &quot;Rhythm, Riots And Revolution&quot;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bayesian</p>
<p>Yeah, sorry for the spelling, I was channeling General Ripper from Dr. Strangelove instead of checking my toothpaste tube. Like you, I assumed that it was an issue from the ancient days, like when  Elvis was supposed to be a communist tool (somewhere I have a copy of  &#8220;Rhythm, Riots And Revolution&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: bayesian</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18851</link>
		<dc:creator>bayesian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18851</guid>
		<description>@jetan -

&lt;i&gt;Fluoridated&lt;/i&gt; water.  &quot;Floridized&quot; water would, I guess, be water that in some fashion resembles Florida (warm and balmy but laden with sediment?).

Is fluoridation still a live issue in the wider far right?  When I was a kid (late Sixties), my best friend&#039;s father (who would be in his eighties now) was a Bircher and once did go off on a fluoridation rant, but other than that I only hear of it in my biannual Dr. Strangelove watching.  

Quick check of La Wik shows people still arguing about it - I guess I&#039;m out of touch on that topic too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jetan -</p>
<p><i>Fluoridated</i> water.  &#8220;Floridized&#8221; water would, I guess, be water that in some fashion resembles Florida (warm and balmy but laden with sediment?).</p>
<p>Is fluoridation still a live issue in the wider far right?  When I was a kid (late Sixties), my best friend&#8217;s father (who would be in his eighties now) was a Bircher and once did go off on a fluoridation rant, but other than that I only hear of it in my biannual Dr. Strangelove watching.  </p>
<p>Quick check of La Wik shows people still arguing about it &#8211; I guess I&#8217;m out of touch on that topic too.</p>
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		<title>By: BarryD</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18849</link>
		<dc:creator>BarryD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18849</guid>
		<description>â€œAt National Review, a Threat to Its Reputation for Erudition â€

A threat to the reputation, but only in the minds of those who are still crazy enough to believe in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>â€œAt National Review, a Threat to Its Reputation for Erudition â€</p>
<p>A threat to the reputation, but only in the minds of those who are still crazy enough to believe in it.</p>
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		<title>By: Indya</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18845</link>
		<dc:creator>Indya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18845</guid>
		<description>It has become Redstate with better pedigree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has become Redstate with better pedigree.</p>
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		<title>By: rawshark</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18844</link>
		<dc:creator>rawshark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18844</guid>
		<description>What was it Leo Strauss said; empirical truth interferes with maintaining order, I think. Basically we can&#039;t fool them into following us if they have access to the truth. Uninventing the internet would help the rights cause I would think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What was it Leo Strauss said; empirical truth interferes with maintaining order, I think. Basically we can&#8217;t fool them into following us if they have access to the truth. Uninventing the internet would help the rights cause I would think.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18798</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 08:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18798</guid>
		<description>Politics aside, this attitude might have something to do with National Review&#039;s decline:

&lt;i&gt;â€œWeâ€™ve always had rigorous internal debates,â€ [Rich Lowry] said. â€œBut the advent of the blogosphere and e-mail and the rest of it have made it easier to blast out their impassioned instant reactions.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;â€œItâ€™s discomfiting, but itâ€™s the world we live in, unless someone â€” Al Gore? â€” can uninvent the Internet.â€&lt;/i&gt;

I agree completely that email and blogs have made it more difficult to participate in political debate while remaining civil and thoughtful.  But Rich Lowry&#039;s job isn&#039;t to police the internet and global email traffic, or to referee the entirety of America&#039;s public discourse.  He&#039;s the editor of a magazine--it&#039;s part of his job to control his employees and prevent them from tarnishing the publication&#039;s image.

There are plenty of things he could do to make National Review&#039;s web presence less of a joke, if he felt like taking any responsibility.  But I suppose it&#039;s easier to take a Rumsfeldian approach and just throw out platitudes about the vagaries of human existence and the impossibility of controlling anything.  Stuff happens, and editing a magazine is untidy.

Presumably he could counter that policing The Corner and the rest of NR&#039;s web presence would stifle the kind of vigorous public debate that makes for a healthy democracy and an interesting publication.  But less structure and lower standards are bad, not good, for public debate.  Anyone looking for evidence of that proposition can just surf over to corner.nationalreview.com.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Politics aside, this attitude might have something to do with National Review&#8217;s decline:</p>
<p><i>â€œWeâ€™ve always had rigorous internal debates,â€ [Rich Lowry] said. â€œBut the advent of the blogosphere and e-mail and the rest of it have made it easier to blast out their impassioned instant reactions.</i></p>
<p><i>â€œItâ€™s discomfiting, but itâ€™s the world we live in, unless someone â€” Al Gore? â€” can uninvent the Internet.â€</i></p>
<p>I agree completely that email and blogs have made it more difficult to participate in political debate while remaining civil and thoughtful.  But Rich Lowry&#8217;s job isn&#8217;t to police the internet and global email traffic, or to referee the entirety of America&#8217;s public discourse.  He&#8217;s the editor of a magazine&#8211;it&#8217;s part of his job to control his employees and prevent them from tarnishing the publication&#8217;s image.</p>
<p>There are plenty of things he could do to make National Review&#8217;s web presence less of a joke, if he felt like taking any responsibility.  But I suppose it&#8217;s easier to take a Rumsfeldian approach and just throw out platitudes about the vagaries of human existence and the impossibility of controlling anything.  Stuff happens, and editing a magazine is untidy.</p>
<p>Presumably he could counter that policing The Corner and the rest of NR&#8217;s web presence would stifle the kind of vigorous public debate that makes for a healthy democracy and an interesting publication.  But less structure and lower standards are bad, not good, for public debate.  Anyone looking for evidence of that proposition can just surf over to corner.nationalreview.com.</p>
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		<title>By: jetan</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18794</link>
		<dc:creator>jetan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 07:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18794</guid>
		<description>&quot;At National Review, a Threat to Its Reputation for Erudition &quot;

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/business/media/17review.html?partner=permalink&amp;exprod=permalink</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;At National Review, a Threat to Its Reputation for Erudition &#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/business/media/17review.html?partner=permalink&amp;exprod=permalink" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/business/media/17review.html?partner=permalink&amp;exprod=permalink</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18793</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 07:12:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18793</guid>
		<description>Has he?  Not that it matters, but I haven&#039;t seen any mention of this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has he?  Not that it matters, but I haven&#8217;t seen any mention of this.</p>
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		<title>By: jetan</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18792</link>
		<dc:creator>jetan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:58:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18792</guid>
		<description>Not that the suspense was killing anyone, but David Frum apparently has joined the Exodus from National Review.I guess the flack he caught for questioning the Palin thing was just too much. At this rate the Corner is going to start resembling a couple of crazy drunks huddled at the end of the bar mumbling about mind control and floridized water.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not that the suspense was killing anyone, but David Frum apparently has joined the Exodus from National Review.I guess the flack he caught for questioning the Palin thing was just too much. At this rate the Corner is going to start resembling a couple of crazy drunks huddled at the end of the bar mumbling about mind control and floridized water.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18789</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 05:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18789</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s right.  I remember seeing that now.  Thanks for tracking it down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s right.  I remember seeing that now.  Thanks for tracking it down.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18788</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 05:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18788</guid>
		<description>Dan, here it is:

http://www.livingroomcandidate.org/commercials/1968/Laughter

The guy laughs and laughs before breaking down into a nasty cough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, here it is:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.livingroomcandidate.org/commercials/1968/Laughter" rel="nofollow">http://www.livingroomcandidate.org/commercials/1968/Laughter</a></p>
<p>The guy laughs and laughs before breaking down into a nasty cough.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Koffler</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2008/11/16/never-before/comment-page-1/#comment-18769</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Koffler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 03:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=7635#comment-18769</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m pretty sure the Humphrey campaign released an ad that was something like the phrase &quot;Vice President Spiro Agnew&quot; in bold letters on the screen and somebody beginning to laugh, laughing harder, and eventually breaking down and laughing hysterically.

Can&#039;t recall which stage of the campaign it was released in, but if it was during that last week when Humphrey closed a big gap and nearly overtook Nixon, it would be thematically and tactically similar to Obama&#039;s anti-Palin ad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure the Humphrey campaign released an ad that was something like the phrase &#8220;Vice President Spiro Agnew&#8221; in bold letters on the screen and somebody beginning to laugh, laughing harder, and eventually breaking down and laughing hysterically.</p>
<p>Can&#8217;t recall which stage of the campaign it was released in, but if it was during that last week when Humphrey closed a big gap and nearly overtook Nixon, it would be thematically and tactically similar to Obama&#8217;s anti-Palin ad.</p>
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