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	<title>Comments on: Missing What Is In Plain View</title>
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	<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/01/26/missing-what-is-in-plain-view/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: conradg</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/01/26/missing-what-is-in-plain-view/comment-page-1/#comment-29952</link>
		<dc:creator>conradg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 06:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8199#comment-29952</guid>
		<description>In general I think it&#039;s fine to be skeptical, but I do think you are continuing to underestimate Obama&#039;s intentions. At the very least it would appear that Obama aspires to change things around considerably, which to him means means changing the status quo itself. 

My general sense of Obama is that you are right in that he likes to act within the status quo, but this neglects that he intends to change the status quo itself, to the point where this allows him to do things which previously would have seemed radical, but when he actually does them they seem normal. His election is itself an example of that. I can&#039;t say what he will actually do for muslims, so it&#039;s hard to judge anything at this point, but I do think we can expect him to pursue a strategy in which the &quot;center&quot; is moved to a position that allows him to do things which will not seem very radical when they happen, but which do indeed represent a significant change from previous policies. In fact, by portraying himself at all times as a centrist, bi-partisan broker who stays within the status quo, he can propose all kinds of things and still have them seen as part of the status quo. This is a strategy of having the mountain come to Mohammed, while he seemingly stays in the same place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In general I think it&#8217;s fine to be skeptical, but I do think you are continuing to underestimate Obama&#8217;s intentions. At the very least it would appear that Obama aspires to change things around considerably, which to him means means changing the status quo itself. </p>
<p>My general sense of Obama is that you are right in that he likes to act within the status quo, but this neglects that he intends to change the status quo itself, to the point where this allows him to do things which previously would have seemed radical, but when he actually does them they seem normal. His election is itself an example of that. I can&#8217;t say what he will actually do for muslims, so it&#8217;s hard to judge anything at this point, but I do think we can expect him to pursue a strategy in which the &#8220;center&#8221; is moved to a position that allows him to do things which will not seem very radical when they happen, but which do indeed represent a significant change from previous policies. In fact, by portraying himself at all times as a centrist, bi-partisan broker who stays within the status quo, he can propose all kinds of things and still have them seen as part of the status quo. This is a strategy of having the mountain come to Mohammed, while he seemingly stays in the same place.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/01/26/missing-what-is-in-plain-view/comment-page-1/#comment-29949</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 00:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8199#comment-29949</guid>
		<description>What he means when he refers to action is unclear.  The responses to Obama&#039;s interview that I find so frustrating are those that assume that the action he is promising is anything like the action they hope/fear he will take.  Thus you have J Street folks, such as Daniel Levy (who wrote a very good article for the magazine in the latest issue, btw), citing remarks about Palestinian suffering as if administration policy is going to be any more concerned with alleviating that suffering than Obama was with alleviating Lebanese civilian suffering (i.e., he wasn&#039;t).  So, okay, he wants to back up his words with action, but said action is not going to involve major breaks with the status quo.  There is nothing in his stated positions that you could not find among the establishment consensus of the Baker-Hamilton Report: two-state solution, talk to regional powers, etc.  To my mind, that is a weakness because it doesn&#039;t go far enough, but for most people that should count as a positive thing.  What I am trying to stress is how boringly mainstream Obama is, which many on both sides of foreign policy debates seem not to want to believe or regard as some kind of trick.  Inevitably that means that, for all of the &quot;language of respect&quot; Obama wants to use, the treatment of many Muslim countries is still going to be heavy-handed and violent.

I would observe in closing that I am being extremely *charitable* to Obama in pushing back against tendentious misreadings of his words.  If I thought there was any truth to either interpretation, I would not attack them in these terms, but it does no justice to Obama&#039;s record and his stated policy proposals to pretend that he will follow through in a way that will actually satisfy persuadable and non-radicalized Muslim populations.  Neocons used to love to talk about all of the interventions they supported that helped Muslim populations (at the expense of their Christian neighbors), which gave them the confidence that they could support attacks on other Muslim populations without being accused of prejudice or vendetta.  The last two administrations have used a lot of &quot;respect&quot; rhetoric while perpetuating policies that do not show that respect.  Until proven otherwise, I assume that Obama will continue most of those policies while talking a good game about showing respect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What he means when he refers to action is unclear.  The responses to Obama&#8217;s interview that I find so frustrating are those that assume that the action he is promising is anything like the action they hope/fear he will take.  Thus you have J Street folks, such as Daniel Levy (who wrote a very good article for the magazine in the latest issue, btw), citing remarks about Palestinian suffering as if administration policy is going to be any more concerned with alleviating that suffering than Obama was with alleviating Lebanese civilian suffering (i.e., he wasn&#8217;t).  So, okay, he wants to back up his words with action, but said action is not going to involve major breaks with the status quo.  There is nothing in his stated positions that you could not find among the establishment consensus of the Baker-Hamilton Report: two-state solution, talk to regional powers, etc.  To my mind, that is a weakness because it doesn&#8217;t go far enough, but for most people that should count as a positive thing.  What I am trying to stress is how boringly mainstream Obama is, which many on both sides of foreign policy debates seem not to want to believe or regard as some kind of trick.  Inevitably that means that, for all of the &#8220;language of respect&#8221; Obama wants to use, the treatment of many Muslim countries is still going to be heavy-handed and violent.</p>
<p>I would observe in closing that I am being extremely *charitable* to Obama in pushing back against tendentious misreadings of his words.  If I thought there was any truth to either interpretation, I would not attack them in these terms, but it does no justice to Obama&#8217;s record and his stated policy proposals to pretend that he will follow through in a way that will actually satisfy persuadable and non-radicalized Muslim populations.  Neocons used to love to talk about all of the interventions they supported that helped Muslim populations (at the expense of their Christian neighbors), which gave them the confidence that they could support attacks on other Muslim populations without being accused of prejudice or vendetta.  The last two administrations have used a lot of &#8220;respect&#8221; rhetoric while perpetuating policies that do not show that respect.  Until proven otherwise, I assume that Obama will continue most of those policies while talking a good game about showing respect.</p>
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		<title>By: conradg</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/01/26/missing-what-is-in-plain-view/comment-page-1/#comment-29947</link>
		<dc:creator>conradg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8199#comment-29947</guid>
		<description>The notion that this is just a superficial verbal gesture is belief by Obama&#039;s actual words addressing that very notion in the interview:

&quot;But these are just words, and what we need now are actions.&quot;

This is what gets the Muslim world excited. You can of course say that Obama doesn&#039;t really intend to back his words up with action, but since he explicitly says he will indeed back these words up with action, you have to call him a liar to suggest his gesture means nothing. Since your critique of Obama has rested on the notion that we really can take him at his word (meaning that he never actually promises to do anything different from the status quo), when he does promise to do something real (though non-specific), don&#039;t we need to assume that he means it?

This means of course that we should expect Obama to actually do something in the realm of action that is different from Bush and the status quo, and that if he doesn&#039;t, we can say that he&#039;s broken his word. So that&#039;s a meaningful difference already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The notion that this is just a superficial verbal gesture is belief by Obama&#8217;s actual words addressing that very notion in the interview:</p>
<p>&#8220;But these are just words, and what we need now are actions.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is what gets the Muslim world excited. You can of course say that Obama doesn&#8217;t really intend to back his words up with action, but since he explicitly says he will indeed back these words up with action, you have to call him a liar to suggest his gesture means nothing. Since your critique of Obama has rested on the notion that we really can take him at his word (meaning that he never actually promises to do anything different from the status quo), when he does promise to do something real (though non-specific), don&#8217;t we need to assume that he means it?</p>
<p>This means of course that we should expect Obama to actually do something in the realm of action that is different from Bush and the status quo, and that if he doesn&#8217;t, we can say that he&#8217;s broken his word. So that&#8217;s a meaningful difference already.</p>
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		<title>By: Balloon Juice &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Phase One in the Transition to the Caliphate</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/01/26/missing-what-is-in-plain-view/comment-page-1/#comment-29934</link>
		<dc:creator>Balloon Juice &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Phase One in the Transition to the Caliphate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8199#comment-29934</guid>
		<description>[...] I finally got a chance to read Obama&#8217;s interview with Al-Arabiya, and I really did not find anything groundbreaking in it. Larison is skeptical: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I finally got a chance to read Obama&#8217;s interview with Al-Arabiya, and I really did not find anything groundbreaking in it. Larison is skeptical: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/01/26/missing-what-is-in-plain-view/comment-page-1/#comment-29932</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 07:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8199#comment-29932</guid>
		<description>The Taiwan/Kennedy reference wasn&#039;t exactly a joke.  I was trying to compare the way hard-line anticommunists responded to Kennedy by way of showing how misguided their fears were.  No doubt Obama will disappoint the hard-liners on Israel who find Bush to be insufficiently zealous and uncompromising in the same way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Taiwan/Kennedy reference wasn&#8217;t exactly a joke.  I was trying to compare the way hard-line anticommunists responded to Kennedy by way of showing how misguided their fears were.  No doubt Obama will disappoint the hard-liners on Israel who find Bush to be insufficiently zealous and uncompromising in the same way.</p>
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		<title>By: Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/01/26/missing-what-is-in-plain-view/comment-page-1/#comment-29931</link>
		<dc:creator>Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8199#comment-29931</guid>
		<description>The spectrum along which Obama&#039;s looking to move isn&#039;t from one side toward another, it&#039;s from one feeling to another.  He&#039;d like people to be, as you suggest they needn&#039;t be, more nervous.  Contrary to the thrust of the international intervention since &#039;67, Obama appreciates that both the Israelis and the Palestinians need to feel less secure about their standing in the world if they are going to really entertain the concessions needed for peace.

George Mitchell in this respect was an inspired choice, less immediately for his negotiating capacities than his credibility with European publics and decision-makers.   The long-term hope of Palestinian rejectionists rests on an ever growing division btwn the EU and US.  His work will thwart the trend in that direction and weaken those arguing that it represents a winning strategy.  A more visible, sympathetic engagement also bolsters the Egyptians and others who do not want to encourage Iranian involvement or Palestinian intransigence but who are appalled by the suffering of ordinary Palestinians.  

As for Israel, small gestures will induce significant concern.   However resilient and resourceful, Israel is keenly aware that its prospects fundamentally depend upon the good will of the outside world.  The temperature has to cool only slightly among its stakeholders to consider new positions.

People negotiate most flexibly when they have something to lose as well as something to gain.   The President appreciates that a light but perceptible touch is needed to alter the strategies of those we&#039;d like to be bargaining instead of battling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The spectrum along which Obama&#8217;s looking to move isn&#8217;t from one side toward another, it&#8217;s from one feeling to another.  He&#8217;d like people to be, as you suggest they needn&#8217;t be, more nervous.  Contrary to the thrust of the international intervention since &#8216;67, Obama appreciates that both the Israelis and the Palestinians need to feel less secure about their standing in the world if they are going to really entertain the concessions needed for peace.</p>
<p>George Mitchell in this respect was an inspired choice, less immediately for his negotiating capacities than his credibility with European publics and decision-makers.   The long-term hope of Palestinian rejectionists rests on an ever growing division btwn the EU and US.  His work will thwart the trend in that direction and weaken those arguing that it represents a winning strategy.  A more visible, sympathetic engagement also bolsters the Egyptians and others who do not want to encourage Iranian involvement or Palestinian intransigence but who are appalled by the suffering of ordinary Palestinians.  </p>
<p>As for Israel, small gestures will induce significant concern.   However resilient and resourceful, Israel is keenly aware that its prospects fundamentally depend upon the good will of the outside world.  The temperature has to cool only slightly among its stakeholders to consider new positions.</p>
<p>People negotiate most flexibly when they have something to lose as well as something to gain.   The President appreciates that a light but perceptible touch is needed to alter the strategies of those we&#8217;d like to be bargaining instead of battling.</p>
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		<title>By: David Tomlin</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/01/26/missing-what-is-in-plain-view/comment-page-1/#comment-29930</link>
		<dc:creator>David Tomlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8199#comment-29930</guid>
		<description>JFK didn&#039;t abandon Taiwan, but he did sign a nuclear test ban treaty and other agreements with the Russians. Some liberals called this &#039;the end of the Cold War&#039;, and hawks were furiously critical. I think it&#039;s fair to say JFK&#039;s policies in office were less hawkish than his campaign rhetoric.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JFK didn&#8217;t abandon Taiwan, but he did sign a nuclear test ban treaty and other agreements with the Russians. Some liberals called this &#8216;the end of the Cold War&#8217;, and hawks were furiously critical. I think it&#8217;s fair to say JFK&#8217;s policies in office were less hawkish than his campaign rhetoric.</p>
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		<title>By: David Tomlin</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/01/26/missing-what-is-in-plain-view/comment-page-1/#comment-29929</link>
		<dc:creator>David Tomlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8199#comment-29929</guid>
		<description>Damn. The second &#039;if&#039; was a typo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damn. The second &#8216;if&#8217; was a typo.</p>
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		<title>By: David Tomlin</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/01/26/missing-what-is-in-plain-view/comment-page-1/#comment-29928</link>
		<dc:creator>David Tomlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=8199#comment-29928</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;To argue otherwise is as if supporters of Taiwan had run around warning that John â€œWar for Quemoy and Matsuâ€ Kennedy was going to abandon Taiwan to the Chinese.&lt;/i&gt;

The expression &#039;as if&#039; if seems to imply that this very thing didn&#039;t happen. Was that a deliberate joke?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>To argue otherwise is as if supporters of Taiwan had run around warning that John â€œWar for Quemoy and Matsuâ€ Kennedy was going to abandon Taiwan to the Chinese.</i></p>
<p>The expression &#8216;as if&#8217; if seems to imply that this very thing didn&#8217;t happen. Was that a deliberate joke?</p>
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