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	<title>Comments on: Let&#8217;s Not Get Carried Away</title>
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	<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/06/10/lets-not-get-carried-away-5/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: lebguy</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/06/10/lets-not-get-carried-away-5/comment-page-1/#comment-32701</link>
		<dc:creator>lebguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9645#comment-32701</guid>
		<description>I am Lebanese, and I voted for the March 14 coalition last Sunday. I think that the author of the article is correct is saying that Obama&#039;s speech wasn&#039;t the cause of the March 14 elections victory, in the sense that, had Obama not given the speech at all, the outcome of the elections would have been the same, most probably. However, it would be too easy to discount Obama&#039;s new approach in general and its influence on these elections and the region. During the Bush Administration, almost every word that came out of the mouth of a Bush administration official was used in Hezbollah propaganda, (for instance, Condoleezza Rice&#039;s &quot;Birth pangs of a new Middle East&quot; or Bush&#039;s &quot;With us or Against Us). And one has to admit that the speeches and the declarations of the Bush administration officials offered ample amounts of rhetorical ammunition to Hezbollah. They were able to use this successfully to recruit people even among Sunnis.  Now, with Obama, Hezbollah have a much tougher job to do. They really did try to attack his speech just before the elections, they said that a country that was built on &quot;the genocide of the native indian tribes of America&quot; had no business proposing solutions in the middle east, but this fell on deaf ears. It would have been entirely different if Obama had said something stupid like Bush&#039;s famous &quot;Bring &#039;em on&quot;. I am not even claiming that such a stupid declaration would have made the Sunnis vote for Hezbollah, as I believe this wouldn&#039;t have happened in any case, but certainly it would have disgusted a large number of them of the pro-Western side and they wouldn&#039;t have voted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am Lebanese, and I voted for the March 14 coalition last Sunday. I think that the author of the article is correct is saying that Obama&#8217;s speech wasn&#8217;t the cause of the March 14 elections victory, in the sense that, had Obama not given the speech at all, the outcome of the elections would have been the same, most probably. However, it would be too easy to discount Obama&#8217;s new approach in general and its influence on these elections and the region. During the Bush Administration, almost every word that came out of the mouth of a Bush administration official was used in Hezbollah propaganda, (for instance, Condoleezza Rice&#8217;s &#8220;Birth pangs of a new Middle East&#8221; or Bush&#8217;s &#8220;With us or Against Us). And one has to admit that the speeches and the declarations of the Bush administration officials offered ample amounts of rhetorical ammunition to Hezbollah. They were able to use this successfully to recruit people even among Sunnis.  Now, with Obama, Hezbollah have a much tougher job to do. They really did try to attack his speech just before the elections, they said that a country that was built on &#8220;the genocide of the native indian tribes of America&#8221; had no business proposing solutions in the middle east, but this fell on deaf ears. It would have been entirely different if Obama had said something stupid like Bush&#8217;s famous &#8220;Bring &#8216;em on&#8221;. I am not even claiming that such a stupid declaration would have made the Sunnis vote for Hezbollah, as I believe this wouldn&#8217;t have happened in any case, but certainly it would have disgusted a large number of them of the pro-Western side and they wouldn&#8217;t have voted.</p>
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		<title>By: jamie</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/06/10/lets-not-get-carried-away-5/comment-page-1/#comment-32696</link>
		<dc:creator>jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:20:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9645#comment-32696</guid>
		<description>Lebanon&#039;s politics are actually a bit more Damascene than Byzantine.  And the problem, most people agree, is that they are simply not sufficiently Levantine.

I&#039;m here all week, try the veal!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lebanon&#8217;s politics are actually a bit more Damascene than Byzantine.  And the problem, most people agree, is that they are simply not sufficiently Levantine.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m here all week, try the veal!</p>
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		<title>By: JJM lost his password</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/06/10/lets-not-get-carried-away-5/comment-page-1/#comment-32694</link>
		<dc:creator>JJM lost his password</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:22:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9645#comment-32694</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Lebanon’s politics are [...] Byzantine&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I find this quote quite humorous, but I wonder if the author intended it that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Lebanon’s politics are [...] Byzantine</p></blockquote>
<p>I find this quote quite humorous, but I wonder if the author intended it that way.</p>
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		<title>By: RedPhillips</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/06/10/lets-not-get-carried-away-5/comment-page-1/#comment-32693</link>
		<dc:creator>RedPhillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9645#comment-32693</guid>
		<description>Daniel don&#039;t you get it? Obama is magic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel don&#8217;t you get it? Obama is magic.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean S.</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/06/10/lets-not-get-carried-away-5/comment-page-1/#comment-32692</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9645#comment-32692</guid>
		<description>Obviously foreign relations figure into elections in some way, just as they do into ours; but like our election showed, its mostly economic and domestic matters that determine the final lever to be pulled in the ballot box. Foreign policy might have something to do with this, if you&#039;re a country that is suffering sanctions or something of the like, or in need of foreign capital (both of which Iran is), but its hard to see how most people on the street see that. It is hard to imagine that many Iranian&#039;s, outside of a kind of managerial middle-class, view foreign investment and/or cooperation as lynchpins to their economic future.

Then theres always the good retort that the Supreme Leader always holds all the cards anyways. It being a rather opaque system they have, we have no idea how much of what Ahmadinejad did was approved or un-approved; its doubtful we&#039;ll ever know. Is the Supreme Leader the true puppet master everyone accuses him of being, or is merely an Islamic version of Queen Elizabeth? That would require far more information than any of us has.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously foreign relations figure into elections in some way, just as they do into ours; but like our election showed, its mostly economic and domestic matters that determine the final lever to be pulled in the ballot box. Foreign policy might have something to do with this, if you&#8217;re a country that is suffering sanctions or something of the like, or in need of foreign capital (both of which Iran is), but its hard to see how most people on the street see that. It is hard to imagine that many Iranian&#8217;s, outside of a kind of managerial middle-class, view foreign investment and/or cooperation as lynchpins to their economic future.</p>
<p>Then theres always the good retort that the Supreme Leader always holds all the cards anyways. It being a rather opaque system they have, we have no idea how much of what Ahmadinejad did was approved or un-approved; its doubtful we&#8217;ll ever know. Is the Supreme Leader the true puppet master everyone accuses him of being, or is merely an Islamic version of Queen Elizabeth? That would require far more information than any of us has.</p>
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		<title>By: jamie</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/06/10/lets-not-get-carried-away-5/comment-page-1/#comment-32691</link>
		<dc:creator>jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9645#comment-32691</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;And I actually wouldn’t be surprised if the same waves might very well make a difference in Iran’s elections. Obama is one *less* reason to tolerate Ahmadinejad, “the devil they know but no longer need.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Tangentially, I happened to see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=256&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; today...

&lt;blockquote&gt;
“I’m sometimes asked who I would vote for if I were enfranchised in this election, and I think that, with due hesitance, I would vote for Ahmadinejad,” [Daniel] Pipes [now Middle East director for the Heritage Foundation] said. The reason, Pipes went on, is that he would “prefer to have an enemy who’s forthright and obvious, who wakes people up with his outlandish statements.”
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
TPM has &lt;a href=&quot;http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/06/10/laura_rozen_iran_may_be_about_to_dump_ahmadinejad/?ref=fpblg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a collection of other neocons&lt;/a&gt;, generally freaking out that they will loose their boogeman.  Interventionists are happy to have liars on the other side of the table-- all the better to forgo the table in the first place, I suppose.

Obama can at least present the image that he&#039;s honestly stating US interests and ambitions, which, disagree with them you might, he is doing.  It is the bare minimum he can do, but it must be done before anything else happens.  It might or might not have an effect on elections, but nothing other than the plain truth, free of stupid threats, will have any positive effect at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>And I actually wouldn’t be surprised if the same waves might very well make a difference in Iran’s elections. Obama is one *less* reason to tolerate Ahmadinejad, “the devil they know but no longer need.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Tangentially, I happened to see <a href="http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=256" rel="nofollow">this</a> today&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>
“I’m sometimes asked who I would vote for if I were enfranchised in this election, and I think that, with due hesitance, I would vote for Ahmadinejad,” [Daniel] Pipes [now Middle East director for the Heritage Foundation] said. The reason, Pipes went on, is that he would “prefer to have an enemy who’s forthright and obvious, who wakes people up with his outlandish statements.”
</p></blockquote>
<p>TPM has <a href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/06/10/laura_rozen_iran_may_be_about_to_dump_ahmadinejad/?ref=fpblg" rel="nofollow">a collection of other neocons</a>, generally freaking out that they will loose their boogeman.  Interventionists are happy to have liars on the other side of the table&#8211; all the better to forgo the table in the first place, I suppose.</p>
<p>Obama can at least present the image that he&#8217;s honestly stating US interests and ambitions, which, disagree with them you might, he is doing.  It is the bare minimum he can do, but it must be done before anything else happens.  It might or might not have an effect on elections, but nothing other than the plain truth, free of stupid threats, will have any positive effect at all.</p>
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		<title>By: jTh</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/06/10/lets-not-get-carried-away-5/comment-page-1/#comment-32689</link>
		<dc:creator>jTh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9645#comment-32689</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t necessarily question any of your analysis.  You may be spot-on about everything.  You obviously know more about Lebanon&#039;s election than I do.

So I&#039;d only say, don&#039;t in general underestimate Obama&#039;s enormous popularity in the Middle East, at least on the street (though I don&#039;t know about Iran or Iraq).  As an American (based in the Eastern Province, but traveling around a bit), I&#039;m subject to a steady stream of Arabs and Pakistanis who are all completely intrigued with him and very optimistic about his impact on the world.  And they consistently admire America for electing him (while remaining amazed that we did).  It&#039;s been an impressive balm, for them!, to the wincing discomfort of the last several years.  

So I&#039;m not quibbling with a word of yours, but in your general assessment, don&#039;t underestimate that he is making positive waves in the culture over here.  &quot;The street&quot; seems very stirred in a positive way for Obama.  (Though I&#039;m personally more in the minimally-positive camp.)  

And I actually wouldn&#039;t be surprised if the same waves might very well make a difference in Iran&#039;s elections.  Obama is one *less* reason to tolerate Ahmadinejad, &quot;the devil they know but no longer need.&quot;  I don&#039;t mean at ALL to pump up Obama by saying that.  I&#039;m just saying that the sea change in attitude toward America is really unambiguous around here.  That&#039;s bound to factor into some elections at some levels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily question any of your analysis.  You may be spot-on about everything.  You obviously know more about Lebanon&#8217;s election than I do.</p>
<p>So I&#8217;d only say, don&#8217;t in general underestimate Obama&#8217;s enormous popularity in the Middle East, at least on the street (though I don&#8217;t know about Iran or Iraq).  As an American (based in the Eastern Province, but traveling around a bit), I&#8217;m subject to a steady stream of Arabs and Pakistanis who are all completely intrigued with him and very optimistic about his impact on the world.  And they consistently admire America for electing him (while remaining amazed that we did).  It&#8217;s been an impressive balm, for them!, to the wincing discomfort of the last several years.  </p>
<p>So I&#8217;m not quibbling with a word of yours, but in your general assessment, don&#8217;t underestimate that he is making positive waves in the culture over here.  &#8220;The street&#8221; seems very stirred in a positive way for Obama.  (Though I&#8217;m personally more in the minimally-positive camp.)  </p>
<p>And I actually wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if the same waves might very well make a difference in Iran&#8217;s elections.  Obama is one *less* reason to tolerate Ahmadinejad, &#8220;the devil they know but no longer need.&#8221;  I don&#8217;t mean at ALL to pump up Obama by saying that.  I&#8217;m just saying that the sea change in attitude toward America is really unambiguous around here.  That&#8217;s bound to factor into some elections at some levels.</p>
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		<title>By: David Tomlin</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/06/10/lets-not-get-carried-away-5/comment-page-1/#comment-32687</link>
		<dc:creator>David Tomlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 00:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9645#comment-32687</guid>
		<description>Tucker makes a factual error that should be noted. It was a coalition that includes Hezbollah, not Hezbollah itself, that &#039;had been widely expected to win a majority of seats&#039;.

I don&#039;t know enough about Lebanese politics to add anything to your analysis. You make a good point about the swing voters being mainly Christian, and so perhaps not likely to be much influenced by Obama&#039;s conciliatory gestures toward &#039;the Islamic world&#039;. 

The gushing of some Obama supporters reminds me of Bush supporters and the short-lived &#039;Arab Spring&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tucker makes a factual error that should be noted. It was a coalition that includes Hezbollah, not Hezbollah itself, that &#8216;had been widely expected to win a majority of seats&#8217;.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know enough about Lebanese politics to add anything to your analysis. You make a good point about the swing voters being mainly Christian, and so perhaps not likely to be much influenced by Obama&#8217;s conciliatory gestures toward &#8216;the Islamic world&#8217;. </p>
<p>The gushing of some Obama supporters reminds me of Bush supporters and the short-lived &#8216;Arab Spring&#8217;.</p>
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