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	<title>Comments on: Libre, Soberana E Independiente</title>
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	<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/07/02/libre-soberana-e-independiente/</link>
	<description>n. the principle of good order&#60;br /&#62;&#60;br /&#62; "Observe the strange inversion of all order and sense! Dignity debased; how vilely is the function of a consul prostituted!" ~The Craftsman</description>
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		<title>By: Nemo_N</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/07/02/libre-soberana-e-independiente/comment-page-1/#comment-33184</link>
		<dc:creator>Nemo_N</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9861#comment-33184</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know much about politics, but as a mexican, I don&#039;t know what is Calderon thinking by supporting Zelaya, at least so openly. Until the year 2000, Mexico was living under a horrible single party rule, disguised as a democracy, that lasted 70 years. One would think this would make him think twice about supporting such characters.

Or maybe he, like many politicians in Mexico, just doesn&#039;t like the idea of people ousting officials once the ruling class&#039; plans become unfavorable for most of the population. &quot;Why let the people get in the way of our plans?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know much about politics, but as a mexican, I don&#8217;t know what is Calderon thinking by supporting Zelaya, at least so openly. Until the year 2000, Mexico was living under a horrible single party rule, disguised as a democracy, that lasted 70 years. One would think this would make him think twice about supporting such characters.</p>
<p>Or maybe he, like many politicians in Mexico, just doesn&#8217;t like the idea of people ousting officials once the ruling class&#8217; plans become unfavorable for most of the population. &#8220;Why let the people get in the way of our plans?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/07/02/libre-soberana-e-independiente/comment-page-1/#comment-33167</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9861#comment-33167</guid>
		<description>Perhaps Calderon is genuinely interested in enforcing the Charter to the letter.  I don&#039;t know if he would have any ulterior motive.  Uribe has his own term-extending plans that would not be served by siding with the opponents of a president who wanted to have a second term.  The secretary-general of the OAS is viewing all of this through his experience as a former member of Allende&#039;s government, which is bound to make him see this as another 1973, which means that he is misreading the situation badly.  It also means that he, as a former leftist exile from Chile, is bound to be sympathetic to an exiled leftist.  As the quote above indicates, the Chavistas are dominating the debate right now and taking the initiative; the anti-Chavistas are being dragged along with them.  Even if some of the governments condemning the coup are doing so entirely in good faith and have taken a consistent position vis-a-vis Cuban membership, that does not seem to be what is driving most of the OAS at the moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps Calderon is genuinely interested in enforcing the Charter to the letter.  I don&#8217;t know if he would have any ulterior motive.  Uribe has his own term-extending plans that would not be served by siding with the opponents of a president who wanted to have a second term.  The secretary-general of the OAS is viewing all of this through his experience as a former member of Allende&#8217;s government, which is bound to make him see this as another 1973, which means that he is misreading the situation badly.  It also means that he, as a former leftist exile from Chile, is bound to be sympathetic to an exiled leftist.  As the quote above indicates, the Chavistas are dominating the debate right now and taking the initiative; the anti-Chavistas are being dragged along with them.  Even if some of the governments condemning the coup are doing so entirely in good faith and have taken a consistent position vis-a-vis Cuban membership, that does not seem to be what is driving most of the OAS at the moment.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/07/02/libre-soberana-e-independiente/comment-page-1/#comment-33166</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9861#comment-33166</guid>
		<description>Daniel,

Your position vis-a-vis the OAS does not appear to take into account such anti-Chavista governments as the ones in Mexico and Colombia.  President Calderon of Mexico has issues one of the strongest statements of any in the region, and he is not only decidedly of the center-right and anti-Chavez he is limited to one term and has not even breathed a word about extending his stay in office, so I am not sure what his motivation would be apart from recognition that Zelaya&#039;s ouster was democratically problematic and legally dubious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel,</p>
<p>Your position vis-a-vis the OAS does not appear to take into account such anti-Chavista governments as the ones in Mexico and Colombia.  President Calderon of Mexico has issues one of the strongest statements of any in the region, and he is not only decidedly of the center-right and anti-Chavez he is limited to one term and has not even breathed a word about extending his stay in office, so I am not sure what his motivation would be apart from recognition that Zelaya&#8217;s ouster was democratically problematic and legally dubious.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/07/02/libre-soberana-e-independiente/comment-page-1/#comment-33165</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9861#comment-33165</guid>
		<description>Alvaro Vargas Llosa is no fan of how Zelaya was deposed, but he did have &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/01/AR2009070103210.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;some comments&lt;/a&gt; on the international response that are worth considering here:

&lt;blockquote&gt;That said, the international response, seeking to reinstate Zelaya without any mention of his illegal acts, has been highly inadequate. The Organization of American States, led by its secretary general, José Miguel Insulza, has acted like Venezuela&#039;s poodle. At Chávez&#039;s request, Insulza went to Nicaragua, where a summit of the anti-democratic ALBA group became the hemisphere&#039;s political center of gravity after the coup. Insulza and other populist presidents said nothing about Zelaya&#039;s dictatorial conduct leading up to last Sunday&#039;s events and simply echoed Venezuela&#039;s self-serving stance. Efforts by other countries, including the United States and many South American governments, to put some nuance into the public statements were neutralized by the spectacle unfolding in Nicaragua, which was widely reported across the Spanish-speaking world. It was sad to see Insulza suddenly remember his organization&#039;s Inter-American Democratic Charter in relation to Honduras -- the same rules of democratic conduct that Chávez, Morales, Correa and Nicaragua&#039;s Daniel Ortega have violated on numerous occasions while the OAS looked the other way. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I suppose it is this two-faced approach by the OAS that bothers me more than any specific sanction being taken against Honduras.  It&#039;s a bit like the people who had no problem partitioning Serbia, but were suddenly horrified at the violations of Georgian sovereignty later the same year (and, of course, they could not see that the one had led more or less directly to the other).  Last month few of these people were terribly interested in the contents of the Democratic Charter.  Today it is holy writ.  It&#039;s a little hard to take their newfound devotion seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alvaro Vargas Llosa is no fan of how Zelaya was deposed, but he did have <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/01/AR2009070103210.html" rel="nofollow">some comments</a> on the international response that are worth considering here:</p>
<blockquote><p>That said, the international response, seeking to reinstate Zelaya without any mention of his illegal acts, has been highly inadequate. The Organization of American States, led by its secretary general, José Miguel Insulza, has acted like Venezuela&#8217;s poodle. At Chávez&#8217;s request, Insulza went to Nicaragua, where a summit of the anti-democratic ALBA group became the hemisphere&#8217;s political center of gravity after the coup. Insulza and other populist presidents said nothing about Zelaya&#8217;s dictatorial conduct leading up to last Sunday&#8217;s events and simply echoed Venezuela&#8217;s self-serving stance. Efforts by other countries, including the United States and many South American governments, to put some nuance into the public statements were neutralized by the spectacle unfolding in Nicaragua, which was widely reported across the Spanish-speaking world. It was sad to see Insulza suddenly remember his organization&#8217;s Inter-American Democratic Charter in relation to Honduras &#8212; the same rules of democratic conduct that Chávez, Morales, Correa and Nicaragua&#8217;s Daniel Ortega have violated on numerous occasions while the OAS looked the other way. </p></blockquote>
<p>I suppose it is this two-faced approach by the OAS that bothers me more than any specific sanction being taken against Honduras.  It&#8217;s a bit like the people who had no problem partitioning Serbia, but were suddenly horrified at the violations of Georgian sovereignty later the same year (and, of course, they could not see that the one had led more or less directly to the other).  Last month few of these people were terribly interested in the contents of the Democratic Charter.  Today it is holy writ.  It&#8217;s a little hard to take their newfound devotion seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: zpcahn</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/07/02/libre-soberana-e-independiente/comment-page-1/#comment-33161</link>
		<dc:creator>zpcahn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 07:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9861#comment-33161</guid>
		<description>&quot;Honduras is learning the bitter lesson that so many small nations have learned in the last twenty years and in the century before that: small nations are never really sovereign and independent if some grander scheme requires them to be trampled on.&quot;

Nice</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Honduras is learning the bitter lesson that so many small nations have learned in the last twenty years and in the century before that: small nations are never really sovereign and independent if some grander scheme requires them to be trampled on.&#8221;</p>
<p>Nice</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Larison</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/07/02/libre-soberana-e-independiente/comment-page-1/#comment-33158</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Larison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 04:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9861#comment-33158</guid>
		<description>Plenty of states in the OAS have clear ideological and political motives to support Zelaya in defense of their own plans for extending their own presidential terms or pursuing left-populist agendas.  Others want to use the most superficial, easiest explanation as a pretext for moral handwringing and demonstrating their devotion to democracy.  Still others have no stake in either side and so have chosen to go along with the rest.  What intelligence do these governments have?  If it&#039;s as good as the intelligence they have on internal affairs in Iran right now or Iraqi weapons programs c. 2003, I&#039;ll take my chances with my humble opinion over government &quot;intelligence.&quot;  I never assume that governments have reasonably accurate intelligence about anything, and I certainly don&#039;t assume they pay attention to it when they do.  Why would you think that is the case?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plenty of states in the OAS have clear ideological and political motives to support Zelaya in defense of their own plans for extending their own presidential terms or pursuing left-populist agendas.  Others want to use the most superficial, easiest explanation as a pretext for moral handwringing and demonstrating their devotion to democracy.  Still others have no stake in either side and so have chosen to go along with the rest.  What intelligence do these governments have?  If it&#8217;s as good as the intelligence they have on internal affairs in Iran right now or Iraqi weapons programs c. 2003, I&#8217;ll take my chances with my humble opinion over government &#8220;intelligence.&#8221;  I never assume that governments have reasonably accurate intelligence about anything, and I certainly don&#8217;t assume they pay attention to it when they do.  Why would you think that is the case?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2009/07/02/libre-soberana-e-independiente/comment-page-1/#comment-33157</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 03:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.amconmag.com/larison/?p=9861#comment-33157</guid>
		<description>Can you offer any explanation as to why so many Governments (who presumably have reasonably accurate intelligence on the Honduran crisis) as opposed to commentators (who clearly do not) have supported Zelaya&#039;s &#039;coup&#039; narrative?  What is their interest in backing Zelaya?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you offer any explanation as to why so many Governments (who presumably have reasonably accurate intelligence on the Honduran crisis) as opposed to commentators (who clearly do not) have supported Zelaya&#8217;s &#8216;coup&#8217; narrative?  What is their interest in backing Zelaya?</p>
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